TERRY GROSS, HOST:
That is FRESH AIR. I’m Terry Gross. The HBO comedy-drama series “The White Lotus,” one in all the TV hits of the pandemic, is wrapping up its second season with one episode remaining. The primary season was nominated for 20 Emmys and won 10, including best limited or anthology series. It won our guest, Mike White, its creator, Emmys for each writing and directing. Mike White also created the HBO series “Enlightened.” He wrote the hit film “School Of Rock,” wrote and directed the movies “Yr Of The Dog” and “Brad’s Status” and, early in his profession, wrote several episodes of the TV series “Freaks And Geeks” and “Dawson’s Creek.” In The Latest York Times, Alexis Soloski identified two themes he’s examined in his work – the gulf between the people we imagine ourselves to be and the people we actually are, and the way living your best life often pushes numerous people into living worse ones. A seemingly out-of-character chapter of his profession is being a reality show contestant. He competed on two seasons of “The Amazing Race” along with his father and was a runner-up on “Survivor.”
“The White Lotus” is in regards to the staff and the rich guests at five-star luxury resort hotels in gorgeous panoramic settings. The settings resemble paradise, however the guests are wrapped up of their problems. Season 1 was set at a White Lotus hotel in Hawaii and focused on class, money and entitlement. Season 2 is ready at a resort hotel in a lovely a part of Sicily. The solid includes Michael Imperioli, F. Murray Abraham and Aubrey Plaza. Jennifer Coolidge plays the identical self-absorbed, insecure, incredibly wealthy character she played in the primary season. This season pivots across the sex lives of its foremost characters – passionate, indifferent and transactional sex, sex from the angle of sex addicts, sex with and without love, and the suspicion, jealousy, mischief and mayhem which might be sometimes the implications of sex.
Mike White, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I’m really having fun with the series, and I’m really completely happy that the primary season was so acclaimed. Why did you should focus Season 2 on a few of the ways – a few of the some ways sex could make you sad, lonely, distrustful, indignant, jealous and add to your misery?
MIKE WHITE: Well, originally, I had a unique idea. I used to be totally moving into a unique direction. After which, we went scouting for hotels. And we went to the hotel that we ended up selecting, which was in Taormina, the San Domenico Palace, which is a renovated convent. And it’s just a really spectacular hotel, and it was – gave the impression of the proper place to set the show. The unique idea was more, like, heavy hitters in business and more about power. After which, I got there, and I used to be like, this looks like this is just not the fitting place for that form of topic. And it just form of gave me the concept – perhaps to form of focus more on sexual jealousy and adultery and infidelity in a more form of operatic form of bedroom farce.
And, you realize, like, the primary season, we did a lot about privilege and about how money is used as a wedge between – in relationships, each kind of intimate and, you realize, just in form of even surface relationships. And I just felt like perhaps we should always attempt to, you realize, not repeat that very same idea. And it just felt like sex was at all times such a fertile, you realize, theme to explore. So it form of – the place kind of forced my hand in a way.
GROSS: From the intro I gave, it’d give the impression that the series may be very sexually explicit. There are some scenes which might be, but not that many. It’s mostly people talking about their sex lives and considering their resentments and jealousies. But, you realize, like, nudity and sex helped get HBO off the bottom. It’s one in all the things it first became famous for. So how did you choose how explicit to make this season?
WHITE: I mean, I’m form of – just personally, actually as a director, I’m very timid about asking people to, like, undress and, like, get into sexual situations. It is not my wheelhouse. And so, like, this was, like – there was definitely times on this shoot that I used to be like, what have I got myself into?
GROSS: (Laughter).
WHITE: Like, I’m similar to – you realize, I’m – my threshold for awkwardness may be very low. So there’s numerous – the actors are far more confident and uninhibited than I’m. And in order that was recent terrain for me. It just felt prefer it was necessary because it truly is baked into the narrative. So, you realize, it’s funny, though, how now that the show is airing, how much you realize, you realize – like, a graphic sex scene or a sex scene that form of is titillating for various reasons does just spike and generate interest within the populace, for higher or worse. I do not know what that claims. But it surely definitely looks like so far as, like, online chatter and just general, like, I do not know, excitement across the show – it’s funny how certain, like, sex scenes have, like, galvanized interest within the narrative of the show.
GROSS: You understand, this season can be about generational differences and what it means to be a person or generational differences in perceptions of harmless flirting versus sexual harassment. And I would like to play a scene by which three generations of men – a grandfather played by F. Murray Abraham, his adult son played by Michael Imperioli and Imperioli’s son played by Adam DiMarco – are vacationing in Sicily, staying at this luxury hotel. They usually make a journey to where the Sicily scenes from “The Godfather II” (ph) were shot including the scene where Michael Corleone’s recent wife is killed by a automobile bomb that was intended for him. And in order that they’re right near – just a number of feet away, really – near where that scene was shot, sitting in a restaurant talking. And the grandfather’s talking about why he thinks that is just an amazingly implausible film. So here’s the scene, and F. Murray Abraham speaks first.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, “THE WHITE LOTUS”)
F MURRAY ABRAHAM: (As Bert Di Grasso) The most effective American movie ever made.
ADAM DIMARCO: (As Albie Di Grasso) No, it isn’t.
ABRAHAM: (As Bert Di Grasso) No? Why not? I believe so.
DIMARCO: (As Albie Di Grasso) Well, yeah. I mean, you’ll.
ABRAHAM: (As Bert Di Grasso) All right. And what’s that presupposed to mean?
DIMARCO: (As Albie Di Grasso) It’s since you’re nostalgic for the solid days of the patriarchy.
MICHAEL IMPERIOLI: (As Dominic Di Grasso) They’re undeniably great movies.
DIMARCO: (As Albie Di Grasso) Men love “The Godfather” because they feel emasculated by modern society. It is a fantasy a couple of time when they might exit and solve all their problems with violence…
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
UNIDENTIFIED MUSICAL ARTIST: (Singing in Italian).
DIMARCO: (As Albie Di Grasso) …And sleep with every woman…
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
UNIDENTIFIED MUSICAL ARTIST: (Singing) Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey.
DIMARCO: (As Albie Di Grasso) …After which come home to their wife, who doesn’t ask them any questions and makes them pasta.
ABRAHAM: (As Bert Di Grasso) Hey. Hey. Hey. That is a traditional male fantasy.
DIMARCO: (As Albie Di Grasso) No. Movies like that socialize men into having that fantasy.
IMPERIOLI: (As Dominic Di Grasso) Movies like that exist because men already do have that fantasy. We’re hard-wired.
ABRAHAM: (As Bert Di Grasso) Comes with the testosterone.
DIMARCO: (As Albie Di Grasso) No, gender is a construct. It’s created.
ABRAHAM: (As Bert Di Grasso) You spent all that cash on Stanford; he comes back brainwashed.
GROSS: Certainly one of the things I liked about this scene is that – I mean, I believe “The Godfather,” especially “Godfather II,” is just, like, an undeniably spectacular film. And it isn’t because I’m a male nostalgic for the times of patriarchy. But there are some individuals who cannot see a movie as a movie, which might be just seeing the politics within the film and the representation within the film. And I sometimes find that frustrating.
But specifically, like, with older movies – and I mean movies even older than “The Godfather” movies. A whole lot of older movies are from an era where sexual politics just weren’t good. I mean, you realize, like, women were, like, wives and housekeepers. And, you realize, occasionally, there’d be a working woman in a movie, and he or she’d often be punished for it or simply, like, give it up for marriage in the long run. But they’re sometimes still great movies. And I’m wondering the way you separate that while you watch old movies, the way you separate, like, the sexual politics or any of the, you realize, colonialist politics from just the moviemaking and the – you realize, the best way the story is told that may still be, like, quite good.
WHITE: Well, it’s – I mean, I’m of two minds. I wrote the primary season. And it talked about numerous – whatever, thorny political and social issues. And numerous people embraced it. After which, you realize, there have been certain form of criticisms where it was – you realize, while you start reading all the things in regards to the value of a bit of art by the way it lines up along with your political philosophy, or the way it should, you realize, cope with certain sorts of representations and whether – marginalized groups or how – you realize, it’s like, it just starts to feel like, as a creator person, you begin to feel such as you’re in a box. But, like, so far as, like – there are tropes which might be just inherently racist or sexist. And, obviously, that is, you realize, not something I’m trying to attempt to reboot.
But, like, this whole season of the show is kind of a little bit bit, like, form of going right into a certain, like, constellation of tropes and check out to, like, play with those tropes in a way that hopefully feels fresh. For me, it’s like, you realize, a few of the most problematic movies have things in it that spark my imagination, which have some form of mischievous appeal that I am going back to that, you realize, on their face are, like – you realize, you’ll reject a few of the – yeah, the politics of it or how things are represented. But to me, it’s like, I do not – I’m not at all times going to movies to have my politics affirmed.
GROSS: Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you happen to’re just joining us, my guest is Mike White. He created, writes and directs the HBO series “The White Lotus,” which is in Season 2. We’ll talk more after a brief break. That is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF WES MONTGOMERY’S “4 ON 6”)
GROSS: That is FRESH AIR. Let’s get back to my interview with Mike White, the creator, author and director of the HBO series “The White Lotus.” Season 2 is in regards to the American guests vacationing at an opulent hotel in Sicily. This season’s focus is on the characters’ sex lives and the way sex is leading more to unhappiness than achievement for many of the characters.
I would like to play one other scene, which is analogous to the one which we heard. It has the identical characters in it. And that is about, like, the generational difference between flirting and sexual harassment. And the setup is F. Murray Abraham, the grandfather, is on the luxurious restaurant within the luxurious hotel along with his son, played by Michael Imperioli, and Imperioli’s son. So the grandfather, F. Murray Abraham, starts flirting with the young, attractive waitress.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, “THE WHITE LOTUS”)
ABRAHAM: (As Bert Di Grasso) We just flew all the best way in from Los Angeles (laughter) simply to be here in Sicily because we aren’t Sicilian. You Sicilian?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) Yes, from Catania.
ABRAHAM: (As Bert Di Grasso) Oh. You married?
IMPERIOLI: (As Dominic Di Grasso) Dad, why don’t you let her put our order in so I can get a drink?
ABRAHAM: (As Bert Di Grasso) My son is an enormous muckety muck in Hollywood, so he’s very impatient.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) I’ll bring you your drinks.
IMPERIOLI: (As Dominic Di Grasso) Thanks.
DIMARCO: (As Albie Di Grasso) Thanks. Sorry.
ABRAHAM: (As Bert Di Grasso) Thanks.
IMPERIOLI: (As Dominic Di Grasso) Dad, you bought to knock it off.
ABRAHAM: (As Bert Di Grasso) Oh, what is the problem?
IMPERIOLI: (As Dominic Di Grasso) What are you doing? I mean, what is the point?
ABRAHAM: (As Bert Di Grasso) Flirting is one in all the pleasures of life.
IMPERIOLI: (As Dominic Di Grasso) Do you really think you’ve got a likelihood with any of those women?
ABRAHAM: (As Bert Di Grasso) Oh, do not be rude.
IMPERIOLI: (As Dominic Di Grasso) I’m just saying you are 80 years old.
ABRAHAM: (As Bert Di Grasso) Well, I’m still a person. And I become older and older, but the ladies I desire remain young – natural, right? You may relate to that.
GROSS: Natural, right (laughter)? You could have seen flirtatious behavior where you are really embarrassed for the older man and uncomfortable for the younger woman, the person who thinks, you realize, flirting is harmless and it’s charming and lovable and the younger woman who feels, like, really, you realize, annoyed or harassed by it.
WHITE: Well, I even have had that with my very own dad, who’s gay. And we went on a visit. We had the same trip to Sweden. His roots are Swedish, which, I suppose, are my roots, too. And, you realize, he would still say stuff like, oh, that guy is absolutely handsome or – I do not know. Or, like, I could tell he could be kind of – you realize, find some guy attractive after which start, like, having not necessarily a flirtatious, like, overtly – not like, perhaps, as bad as, like, what Bert is doing. But, like, something about it – I believe that seeing yourself in that. After which it is also your dad. And he’s 80 years old. You are similar to, oh, please. Like, I do not know. I just – I revert back to the 12-year-old me, where I’m like, don’t – please, don’t embarrass me, Dad or – you realize? So…
GROSS: (Laughter) Yeah.
WHITE: So I believe it’s – I can relate to, yeah, the part where it’s similar to, you do not need to take into consideration that side of them. And you furthermore mght don’t need to think that, like, at a certain age, they’re still feeling that way or still having those desires that you simply see in yourself and wish to attempt to disown. So it’s like, I believe there’s just so many layers of, like, wanting to be greater than just, yeah, having those base instincts, after which also wanting your, yeah, parent to, much more so, live as much as that. They usually never do.
GROSS: And likewise feeling that that person is blind to the response they’re actually getting. That they are so…
WHITE: Right. And likewise it’s like, it is the guy who, yeah, was handsome and was capable of get women at a certain age and still thinks he’s – perhaps he’s still got that charm and still has a likelihood.
GROSS: So I would like to admit, I began watching Season 2 of “The White Lotus” after the primary episode. So then I went back and watched the primary episode to catch up and was surprised to seek out (laughter) that within the opening scene, one in all the characters, after talking about what an incredible vacation that is, what an ideal setting, what an ideal place, goes into the ocean for a swim. And shortly after leaving the shore, sees a dead body. It turns on the market’s several dead bodies floating within the ocean.
So after the primary scene, you realize, that is partially a murder mystery. And also you said before – since the first season is like this, too, where there’s – you realize that there is been a murder. But you do not know, like, who’s behind it – that it keeps people watching. You understand, once there is a dead body, you’ve got to seek out out, like, who did it? But you have to be laughing about that, too, you realize, knowing the way you’re intentionally using that as a method to keep people watching.
WHITE: You understand, I have been making stuff for a very long time. And when that first season became such a form of – I do not know – watercooler show where people were talking about it, I used to be like, actually, had I only known if I’d put a dead body at the start of “Enlightened,” perhaps people would have watched “Enlightened.” I do not know.
GROSS: (Laughter).
WHITE: Like, you realize, you realize these sorts of hooks, like, do actually get viewers. And hopefully, you may, you realize, still attempt to – you realize, it’s like, you realize, that is just not what drives me to make these things. But I do – you realize, I enjoy it when people see it and are engaged in it. So it felt like, obviously, that device did work the primary season. And so far as the second season, I used to be like, you realize, since we’re doing a recent hotel and recent actors and recent characters, it was like, well, what’s “White Lotus” as a franchise? And perhaps this device is a component of it, which is just feeling like there may be going to be – you realize, that there is some – it’s constructing to a form of operatic or, you realize, tragic ending for one in all these characters.
And clearly, it – definitely, you realize, just based on, like, online chatter and just friends and different people, it looks like it clearly is something that drives interest within the show. And hopefully, you realize, you may – you realize, people will resolve on the conclusion whether it’s satisfying or feels just device-y (ph). But at this point, I’m excited in regards to the finale. I do feel prefer it kind of looks like it’s – there is a justification for it. But, yeah, it’s probably not my natural wheelhouse. But, you realize, as any person who’s been form of working within the margins, like, it’s form of nice to have viewers (laughter).
GROSS: You have been a contestant on reality shows, including “Survivor” and “The Amazing Race.” And in a way, a part of “The White Lotus” is like “Survivor” within the sense that you realize persons are going to get, you realize, voted off the island or, on this case, like, murdered off the island because – and it literally is an island that it’s set on. So do you think that you were influenced by “Survivor” in form of creating that suspense of, like, who’s going to survive and who’s going to be forced off?
WHITE: It’s funny. It’s embarrassingly true. It’s funny because I used to be – Jeff Probst, who’s the host of “Survivor,” is a friend now. And I used to be with him not way back, and he was talking about how much he loved the show. And I used to be fascinated by – I used to be, like, fascinated by it. I used to be like, there’s all these devices which might be literally out of “Survivor,” which is – yeah, who’s going to die at the tip of the show? After which we use these transitions and, like, this type of music.
It’s like – because “Survivor” is just not that dissimilar, which is – numerous times it’s just people, like, form of kvetching about who’s, you realize, tending the fireplace and, like – and, you realize, or having, like – yeah, they’re hangry (ph) because they have not, you realize, have not had anything to eat. And – but then the music is, like, making it feel like, yeah, that is going to find yourself bad for any person. After which, you realize, you’ve got these transitions of, like, sharks within the water. And I used to be like, we do this in “White Lotus.” So there’s definitely, I suppose – yeah, I even have to cop to being influenced by “Survivor” and – or, you realize, these shows where you’ve got this type of – yeah, you’ve got a tool that makes it feel prefer it’s like, yeah, a built-in cliffhanger.
GROSS: You made a half-joking reference to “Fantasy Island” in an interview saying that your series is, in a way, a version of “Fantasy Island.” And “Fantasy Island,” for individuals who do not know the series, was, you realize, a comedy series – can I call it a comedy series, comedic drama? I do not know – from the late ’70s and early ’80s where people would come and vacation on “Fantasy Island,” where their fantasies could be fulfilled. And it was such a formulaic show. I mean, it was form of hilarious to look at since it was apparently a fail-proof formula but, you realize, just an unembarrassed way of fulfilling the formula week after week. So tell us why you made that comparison.
WHITE: (Laughter) Well, the reality is, like, I grew up – I’m definitely the “Fantasy Island,” “Love Boat” generation. I used to be – you realize, I used to be probably 10 to 13 years old once they were in form of their heyday. And I loved those shows. And I also – my other favorite show was “Laverne And Shirley,” which was the identical time. And I used to be like, OK – since the two prostitutes within the show – I used to be like, that is – there’s something very “Laverne And Shirley” here of those girls, like, attempting to, like, you realize, like – because Laverne and Shirley were at all times attempting to break into the – like, you realize, the party that they weren’t invited to. And, you realize, like, they were form of these, like, underdog, working-class girls.
Whenever you’re on HBO and there is this – all this sense of – like, you realize, it’s prestige TV and blah, blah, blah. And, like, I used to be similar to, I’m doing, like, principally a reboot of “Laverne And Shirley” meets, you realize, “Fantasy Island” with some “Survivor” dropped into it. But, yeah, I believe those early, like, entertainment things that capture your imagination definitely follow you.
GROSS: But it surely also has elements of, like, classic American theater, like Edward Albee and Eugene O’Neill’s psychodramas.
WHITE: I mean, you are hitting all my references. Yeah. I mean, once I was a child, I used to be, like – my second-grade teacher was Sam Shepard’s mother. And so I, like, got “Buried Child” as a script after which began reading like, yeah, “Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf?” And I purchased the – I mean, I used to be 10 years old. I had, like, the record of, like, Uta Hagen doing “Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf?” And I might follow along within the book of it, the – you realize, the printed play of it. And so, you realize, wealthy people ordering drinks and getting drunk and beginning to have, like (laughter), arguments and – once I was young, I felt like that was the head of, like, sophisticated art. I mean, I used to be growing – you realize, growing up on this, like, religious community in Pasadena. Like, it was similar to – I just felt like that was what – that is what high art was. That is what high society was. So I’m still working through that, I suppose.
GROSS: Well, let’s take one other short break here. If you happen to’re just joining us, my guest is Mike White. He’s the creator, author and director of the HBO series “The White Lotus.” Season 2 will conclude on Sunday. We’ll be right back after a brief break. I’m Terry Gross, and that is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF CRISTOBAL TAPIA DE VEER’S “RENAISSANCE (TITLE THEME)”)
GROSS: That is FRESH AIR. I’m Terry Gross. Let’s get back to my interview with Mike White, the creator, author and director of the HBO series “The White Lotus.” Season 2, which concludes Sunday, is in regards to the American guests vacationing at an opulent hotel in Sicily. The season’s focus is on the characters’ sex lives and the way sex is leading more to unhappiness than achievement. Season 1 of “The White Lotus” was nominated for 20 Emmys and won 10 including for best limited or anthology series. It won Mike White, its creator, Emmys for each writing and directing. Mike White also created the HBO series “Enlightened.” He wrote the movie “School Of Rock” and wrote and directed the movies “Yr Of The Dog” and “Brad’s Status.”
Your father, who we have talked about before on the show, was an evangelical minister and ghostwrote memoirs for such homophobic evangelical leaders as Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson. After which, your father got here out and have become a gay activist. You were 11, I believe, when he got here out. You had mentioned that, since you grew up in, like, a spiritual environment, you were principally taught that expressing sexuality was form of a sin. Are you able to talk a little bit bit more about what you were taught about sexuality in that environment each by your parents and by school? I do not know when you went to a public school or an evangelical school, but I do know you went to a spiritual camp. Was it, like, a Christian camp?
WHITE: Well, I mean, from my actual parents, I do not know if it was talked about an excessive amount of. Once I noticed my dad was gay – and I discovered he was gay prior to him, like, coming out to the family simply because he’d had numerous therapy and kept all these notes in regards to the therapy. And I stumbled upon that and realized that this was – that there was this whole other side to him and what was happening. I used to be just at all times taught that – within the greater community that my parents were a component of, that, you realize, sex was a – you realize, mostly sinful and form of unspeakable. And it was – you realize, it was something that everyone form of kept under wraps, you realize?
I went to a secular school, and so I got more of a way of – you realize, it rounded out my perception of sex. But, you realize, the reality was movies were the best way that I got my education on sex, for higher or worse. You understand, like, I – we had cable or – you realize, early type of cable in our house in Southern California. And I – you realize, that they had Z Channel. And, like, late at night, I might activate movies. And I – you realize, I just – yeah, I began looking for out information by myself.
GROSS: You understand, you mention that you simply discovered your father was gay before the remaining of the family knew since you chanced on his papers and skim that. And so what happened? Did you ask your father to clarify it to you? Were you upset by what you’d read? You were 11. I do not know the way much you understood what you were reading.
WHITE: Well, my mom – I didn’t discover before my mom. My parents were earnestly attempting to undergo the incontrovertible fact that my dad had these gay leanings or desires together, you realize, and – but I knew before my sister and positively before they told, you realize, people in our – of their form of social circle. Once I was young, it felt like such a betrayal because I – and so I form of kept it to myself for some time. After which, finally, it – yeah, it got here out that – you realize, that I knew. And, you realize, I used to be – it was a really tortured time because my – you realize, my parents did not have – couldn’t provide any solace for me because they were still so – it was still so confusing, they usually were so tortured over it themselves.
And so it was – you realize, but it surely was weird. I accepted it before he did. Like, I – like, it didn’t trouble me a lot that he was – like, the actual fact of him being gay. It was just more the way it was going to affect our family unit and all of that. You understand, all the things is embarrassing, and that is just one other thing – but it surely never felt like several more particularly embarrassing than simply the incontrovertible fact that my, you realize, parents had sex lives in any respect.
GROSS: What was your father’s response when he realized that you simply knew and that you simply had read things that were meant to be private?
WHITE: I do not – I mean, I believe it was – oh, man. My dad was – you realize, he was going through electroshock – I mean, he was going through such – I mean, he was – he – you realize, he so earnestly didn’t want to go away the family. He didn’t need to be gay. It was very painful for him. So it was hard to – you realize, it was hard to be mad at him. And it was hard to – you realize, it’s like – he’s – so he was – yeah, he was upset and, like, you realize – and he – you realize, it was all very sad. You understand, it ended up – you realize, my parents have an incredible relationship. You understand, they soon had a – you realize, like, all the things form of worked out, in a way. But it surely was – yeah, there is a – years of numerous, like, painful, transitional process.
GROSS: Season 1 of “The White Lotus” was set in Hawaii at an opulent hotel there. You are talking to us now from Hawaii. You may have a house there, and also you lived a part of the yr there. You furthermore mght went there to get better – tell me if I got this incorrect – to get better from a nervous breakdown that you simply had within the, I believe, early aughts after things weren’t – weren’t going well on a series that you simply were writing, and also you were having numerous disagreements with the execs on the network that you simply were writing the series for. And in “Enlightened,” the foremost character, Laura Dern, when she has a nervous breakdown at work, goes to Hawaii to get better. You first began going to Hawaii, vacationing there, while you were a baby along with your family. Why were you going to Hawaii to vacation? And what did Hawaii appear to be to you from the angle of a baby?
WHITE: Yeah. We – my dad – he had a friend from Fuller Seminary, one other professor or one in all his students – I do not know – who lived in Honolulu. And this guy had children the identical ages as my sister and I. And in order that was our first trip there. But, yeah, once I was young, it was – you realize, it was the primary place that I had been that wasn’t home. And the sensation was so different, and the vibe was so different – and the colours. And it felt like that was where vacation was. That is where – I do not know. That was where the elsewhere was that wasn’t Pasadena and my home.
And I suppose, you realize, you mostly are attempting to reenact your childhood someway. You understand, like, I – once I got a little bit money, I used to be like, oh, I’ll buy a little bit place in Hawaii, and I can get my parents on the market. It was like almost, like, attempting to, like – you return to the scene of the unique happiness and, you realize, obviously all of – there’s numerous cliches involved with Hawaii, too, which is, like, the aloha culture. And all the things is – you realize, it’s like this type of, like – you realize, like, it is the child’s view.
You understand, now I’m old and cynical. And such as you – you realize, the hotels. And, you realize, like, you peel the paradisiacal onion, and also you see how fraught the history is here with colonialism and the way you are not necessarily a welcome guest to the people here. But, like, while you’re a child and you are like going to those, like, kitschy, you realize, Hawaiiana luaus or whatever, it just – there’s something about it that just locks in my head as some form of – like, that is what paradise is. And I believe in the primary season, I used to be form of fiddling with that, which is like, you realize, it’s paradise. After which it’s. Obviously it’s paradise in another person’s, you realize, home who’s probably not (laughter) – who got screwed over to have you ever there. But I’m that child, you realize? So it’s still attempting to capture the magic of that fantasy.
GROSS: I mean, one in all the points of “The White Lotus” is which you can be in a setting that resembles paradise and produce all of your troubles with you. Like, you bring yourself. You bring your troubled self to paradise. And your troubled self stays troubled. And I’m wondering, you realize, having lived in LA and lived in Hawaii, is being depressed in a paradise-like setting any higher than being depressed in a suburb or a city, you realize, in Los Angeles?
WHITE: Well, the thing is I believe the show tries to get at this a little bit bit, too, in only a macro thing that – like, you realize, while you’re wealthy and also you haven’t got, like, situational problems that should do with money, then your problems grow to be existential. It’s similar to, you realize, you’ve got all the tools to, like, work out your life, and you may’t work out your life.
I believe the identical is, like, within the setting. So it’s like when you’re in some gloomy, urban, dystopic spot, you may at all times say, oh, it’s, you realize, my surroundings which might be making me depressed. Or that is – it’s like, but when you’re in paradise and you are feeling like something’s missing otherwise you’re melancholy otherwise you’re, you realize, tortured, you realize, it isn’t the ambient nature of what is going on on. It’s something in you. And so I feel like there’s – you realize, as any person who likes to write down in an existential way about, like, the questions of happiness and whatever, achievement or frustrations or whatever – that it sometimes looks like it draws me to attempt to take all of the kind of situational, like, excuses for unhappiness off the table.
GROSS: If you happen to’re just joining us, my guest is Mike White. He’s the creator, author and director of the HBO series “The White Lotus.” We’ll be right back. That is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF KYLE EASTWOOD’S “SAMBA DE PARIS”)
GROSS: That is FRESH AIR. Let’s get back to my interview with Mike White, the creator, author and director of the HBO series “The White Lotus.” Season 2 concludes on Sunday.
“The White Lotus” has been a extremely big success. I mean, it’s already renewed for a 3rd season, and the second season is not even over yet. The primary season won 10 Emmys and received 20 nominations. That is, like, rather a lot. You received one for writing and one for guiding. And what was the third?
WHITE: Well, only for the series itself as a producer.
GROSS: Yeah. In order that was great. And, you realize, I felt really completely happy for you.
WHITE: Thanks, Terry.
GROSS: And I do know, such as you said, you worked within the margins for a very long time. And “Enlightened,” a series I loved, was canceled after the second season, which I do know was an incredible disappointment for you. What’s it been like so that you can have a series that has really caught on? I mean, it is a form of zeitgeist series.
WHITE: You understand, truthfully, it’s extremely – it’s fun because I’ve – I mean, I’ve worked really hard on this series. It’s really been a ultramarathon, especially doing this last one right after the primary season. It’s just – you realize, I’m writing and directing all of them, so it’s intense. But I’ve done that before on other things which have just sat on a shelf in some executive’s office, and I can not get them to release it. Or, you realize – or, like, it comes and goes and doesn’t even appear to make a register within the culture. And so it’s – I even have to say it’s – yeah, it’s nice. It is not something that I ever expect or – and to me, I feel like that is just – I just feel like I’m like a surfer who’s been within the ocean for, like, 25 years and, like, suddenly caught a wave. And I suppose perhaps just being on the market long enough, you realize, you are going to catch a wave. But it surely’s good that it happened as I’m old because I’m similar to – you realize, I do know to attempt to chase that is silly since it’s – you realize, you never know. You understand, it’s only a completely happy fluke.
GROSS: Has success modified your self-image or how other people see you?
WHITE: I do think it’s modified me in certain ways in which I didn’t expect. And I believe it’s informed my work and doubtless for – to some people, perhaps not for the positive. But, you realize, it’s like once I was younger, I at all times identified with the young person and the – you realize, because the underdog, the – you realize, like, the – you realize, as you become older and also you grow to be in control of people, like, I suppose I even have more sympathy for, like, the older person and the person with power, you realize? Like, it’s like, once I was young, I used to be like, oh, you realize, you are at all times wanting to stay it to the person. And I might write scripts about sticking it to the person. After which it’s like, you grow to be the person. And you are like, well, the person has problems, too. The person – it isn’t really easy for the person, you realize?
So it’s – so perhaps that is just the sad march toward the – you realize, you lose touch with the underdog or whatever. Yeah. You should hold on to your values that made you should change the world and, yeah, not grow to be a sellout or not grow to be any person who’s just, you realize, wanting to defend the established order. At the identical time, I do not know. There’s something about being in power where you begin to see how, you realize, it’s hard to be in charge. I do not know. You understand, so I do think it’s modified me a little bit bit but hopefully not unrecognizably so or irredeemably so.
GROSS: In one in all your acceptance speeches for the primary season of “White Lotus,” one in all your Emmy acceptance speeches, you thanked your father. And also you said, you realize, you might be grateful that you simply had the prospect to honor him, that he was struggling straight away. What was happening, and the way is he? Is it OK to ask?
WHITE: Yeah, it’s OK. I actually desired to inform you – is that – yeah. My dad has Lewy body dementia, and he has Alzheimer’s.
GROSS: Oh.
WHITE: And he has – he’s in – yeah, he’s in really bad shape. Like, he cannot arise. He cannot walk. He cannot roll over in bed. His brain continues to be there. He – you may talk with him, but he gets confused rather a lot. And he is not the person who he was. It was crazy because a yr ago I went on a visit with him to Sweden. And once we did the trip that they did within the show. And inside a yr, it’s like – he’s like, I can not – he cannot do anything. In order that’s distressing.
But I at all times remembered us going onto to your show, and he was so pleased with that. And so I did need to bring that up simply because it’s something that, you realize, my dad at all times wanted. You understand, he wanted some form of public approval and him being gay and being seen as, like, a very good person. It was funny how being on “Amazing Race” together, he got certain things out of that show that he wasn’t even capable of do in all these years of activism because people saw him as, you realize, like, a very good dad and a funny guy. And so yeah. So once we went onto your show, which – he’s such a fan of yours – it was a cool, cool thing for each of us.
GROSS: Does he have any sense of the success that you simply’re having?
WHITE: Yeah, obviously. I brought one in all the Emmys down, and we left it with him. And he’s – yeah, he’s so proud. And, you realize, it’s like I have been away for the last yr because I have been shooting in Italy. And, like, my dad was at all times, you realize, he – you realize, he loved – you realize, it’s like he loved me going off and achieving and with the ability to have, you realize, the natural parental bragging rights. But now within the last yr, you realize, what he wants is only for me to be with him.
GROSS: Yeah, in fact. Yeah.
WHITE: And so it’s – I feel like I’ve spent my whole maturity attempting to impress my dad by, you realize, going out and making things. And clearly, it wasn’t only for him, but for me, too. Then, like, now, it’s like, I believe he just wants me to be near him.
GROSS: So do you would like the series to be renewed? Like, do you realize if you should do that again, especially given the circumstances that you simply’re describing along with your father?
WHITE: Well, I definitely…
GROSS: Perhaps you do not need to inform all of us that (laughter). Perhaps that is a conversation between you and executives at HBO.
WHITE: No, I definitely need to do it again. And it is a gift horse so far as, you realize, having a platform to give you the option to – you realize, they’re principally letting me do whatever I would like. And, you realize, HBO is a spot that has the resources, so hopefully, you may do it right. So I – you realize, I feel like I don’t need to mess this up. Yeah. So far as easy methods to juggle all the stuff that is happening, you realize, my mom’s getting older, too. You understand, it’s like I, like, have all my friends. It’s like, I don’t need – my fear is that I’ll come back from, you realize, one other season, and, like, every – you realize, like, nobody knows who I’m. And, you realize, I don’t have any personal life anymore.
But at the identical time, I really like with the ability to do that and likewise with the ability to incorporate travel into it and and check out to – you realize, shooting in Italy was such a fantasy. And to perhaps do that again in one other culture, one other country could be really cool. And I feel like, you realize, this – the thought is elastic enough that it isn’t like I can, you realize, I do not feel like I’m stuck in some formula. I can attempt to give you a recent theme and recent characters and a recent reason to do it. And so it’s really on me.
GROSS: And recent people to kill within the opening scene (laughter).
WHITE: Yeah, so long as someone’s dead within the opening scene, I can do whatever I would like.
GROSS: Mike White, it has been great to speak with you again. I’ve really been having fun with this season, and I can not wait to see the way it ends. So thanks a lot for being on our show.
WHITE: Thanks for having me, Terry.
GROSS: Mike White is the creator, author and director of the HBO series “The White Lotus.” The season finale is Sunday. After we take a brief break, rock critic Ken Tucker will review singles by three artists, including Carly Rae Jepsen, each coping with past romance. That is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF DUKE ELLINGTON’S “SUGAR RUM CHERRY (DANCE OF THE SUGAR PLUM FAIRY)”
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