Pope Francis dedicated his entire Angelus address this past Sunday, Oct. 2, to denouncing the war in Ukraine. Recent weeks have seen the Ukrainians pushing back Russian forces on the bottom while Russian president Vladimir Putin has escalated his threats, claiming that 4 Ukrainian regions now belong to Russia and that Russia will take any try and reclaim them as a threat to its territorial integrity. Mr. Putin said that within the face of such a so-called invasion, Russia would respond by all means needed—including using nuclear weapons.
The Vatican has responded to the war to this point by advocating for peace and specializing in sending humanitarian aid. However the pope has faced criticism on the world stage for being too soft on Russia. Previously, he has said that NATO had been “barking at Russia’s gate” before the invasion, and he prayed for a Russian civilian who was killed, purportedly by Ukrainian forces; she was the daughter of a controversial pro-Putin Russian philosopher.
Joe Donnelly: “I hope that when the Vatican looks at [us], they are saying, ‘ what? Also they are accomplishing God’s mission in making people’s lives higher.'”
Within the pope’s temporary but forceful speech this weekend, he appealed to Mr. Putin directly for the primary time, calling for a right away ceasefire. He called on Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky to be open to serious proposals for peace. But what does a just peace seem like?
On this week’s “Contained in the Vatican” podcast, U.S. Ambassador to the Holy See Joe Donnelly told me, “It is just not much of a peace agreement if any individual involves you and says, ‘Look, we’ve put a deal together, and 80 percent of your town goes to be protected, and sorry, you’re within the 20 percent.’”
The ambassador and I discussed his work with the Vatican, and the way he navigates that collaboration even when the Holy See’s goals and approach to diplomatic issues differ from those of the US. A transcript of our conversation, edited for length and clarity, follows.
Colleen Dulle: Are you able to give us a glance contained in the daily work of an envoy? What’s an bizarre day for you?
Joe Donnelly: I’m incredibly blessed that President Biden asked me to do that. I used to be raised as a Catholic, still am Catholic, a second-generation Irish immigrant. So the Catholic faith has been an enormous a part of my life. And clearly, having a probability to serve my home country, the US, which I really like with all my heart, within the House and within the Senate has been such an enormous a part of my life as well. [This role] type of blended each those things. What I attempt to do is represent the US to the Vatican to represent us on various policy issues, and to be certain that that when topics are being discussed and being considered by the Vatican, that America’s perspective is heard. As well, it gives the Vatican a probability to have the opportunity to talk to Americans, [and] say, “Look, listed here are our concerns about these issues.”
CD: What does that seem like? Do you hear that something is being discussed within the Vatican and also you call up Cardinal Parolin, the Vatican’s secretary of state, and say, “Hey, here’s our stance”?
JD: No, it’s not like that. Normally frequently, we meet with Cardinal Parolin, the secretary of state, and Archbishop Gallagher [the Vatican’s secretary for relations with states, the counterpart to a foreign minister]. The list of issues, obviously, is long. It involves Ukraine, which has been an enormous a part of my time here, and dealing on things like human rights and trafficking, health care issues, security concerns for religious who could also be serving overseas that we’d have the opportunity to be of help with. A pair days before, we’ll hear from the Vatican saying, “Hey, we’re seeking to discuss this issue,” or vice versa, where we’ll say, “Look, there’s a discussion happening about Ukraine, we’d like to take a seat with so-and-so and go over that.”
CD: There are points of agreement between the US and the Holy See, and there are points of less agreement. Can I ask you what the points of cooperation are and what the points of difference are—and more importantly, the way you approach navigating those points of disagreement?
JD: Well, I represent the US. Obviously in our country, as an example, within the Catholic Church, there are different points of view about almost every issue. There are Catholics who’re considered social justice Catholics; there are Catholics who’re considered more rules-oriented Catholics. My job is just not to get in the course of the several Catholic groups who don’t agree with each other on this or that. I don’t represent a Catholic group. I represent the US. Once I work on a problem with the Vatican, we may agree on a part of it, on a foreign policy issue within the Middle East, as an example, and the Vatican may say, “We consider on this and this,” and I’ll say, “Look, that’s not where we’re. Here is why. Here’s our perspective on this.” On the Catholic cultural issues, my job is just not to be in the course of Catholic fights about doctrine. That’s the last place you should be sometimes. I let the varied religious groups scrum those out, and I attempt to work on issues regarding our country.
Joe Donnelly: “My job is just not to get in the course of the several Catholic groups who don’t agree with each other on this or that. I don’t represent a Catholic group. I represent the US.”
CD: You said you’re a practicing Catholic yourself; you’re also on this position where you’re not necessarily representing Catholics or Catholicism. You’re representing all the American people, who’re so much more diverse. I ponder the way you personally navigate times when your personal beliefs might not be in alignment with what President Biden wants you to advocate, for instance.
JD: , I’ve not had any problems to this point navigating those things. People ask, “Does any of that stuff keep you up at night?” No. There has actually not been any problem with that.
CD: You brought up Ukraine: Only for some context for our listeners, you began your duties within the Vatican in mid-April, so somewhat bit after the start of the war in Ukraine.
JD: Yeah, and I actually became the ambassador to the Vatican before Mr. Putin invaded Ukraine, in mid-February, and got here here to Rome in mid-March and presented my official credentials to the pope on April 11.
CD: It was around then that you simply had this conversation with the pope that you simply told my colleague Gerry O’Connell about, that focused totally on Ukraine, where you said that the pope really gave the impression to be agonizing over [the war]. How was that anguish evident?
JD: In the event you hear what the pope said in his Angelus address [on Oct. 2], it was completely about Ukraine. I believe that is something that he agonizes over each day. On the day I spent with him on April 11, we talked for over half an hour, and possibly 90 percent of it was about Ukraine and the way we will get to a spot where the bloodshed ends. I used to be very honest and upfront with him. I said, “Look, Putin began this war. Putin and Russia invaded Ukraine. They’ve slaughtered the Ukrainian people. They’ve tortured and raped and murdered them. Russia is fighting to take Ukraine. Ukraine is fighting to survive.” What I even have all the time tried to do is speak truth, and that’s the situation we’re in.
Joe Donnelly: “You look to try to seek out a position where Putin will say, ‘Enough.’ And I even have had past experience in coping with folks like this.”
CD: Your conversation with Pope Francis was some time ago. Quite a bit has modified when it comes to the war. How do you see things standing now when it comes to the Vatican’s efforts for peace, after which the role you could play in that?
JD: I’ve tried, like I said, to be consistently very clear in representing the US’ views on this, which is that Putin and Russia attacked Ukraine. The interesting thing right away is that the tide has turned in Ukraine: The Ukrainian army is pushing back and is succeeding at moving the Russians further back toward their very own country on an almost every day basis. So we’re in a special situation than once I first talked to the pope, where it was a matter of, “Could they hang on and will they survive?” Straight away, the query is, “How far can the Ukrainians go? Can they carry this right back to the Russian border?”
You look to try to seek out a position where Putin will say, “Enough.” And I even have had past experience in coping with folks like this. I served on the Armed Services Committee in the US Senate, traveled to Iraq 5 – 6 times, to Afghanistan 5 – 6 times. [Putin] is just not the primary one that I’ve seen conduct themselves this fashion. Unfortunately, I believe, with Vladimir Putin, you have got to keep off. He’s a bully.
CD: Is that any different from the way in which that the Vatican approaches this? I just read Victor Gaetan’s book, God’s Diplomats, concerning the pope’s ambassadors. And he made the purpose that in Vatican diplomacy, since peace is the highest priority, you never need to be in a situation where you’re creating winners and losers. I believe that’s the fear as Putin gets an increasing number of erratic and is escalating his threats of nuclear attacks. Is there a tension between the Holy See and the U.S. on this?
JD: I wouldn’t say there’s a tension, no. You will have heard the Vatican say that Ukraine has a right to defend itself. Ukraine has a right to make use of weapons to defend itself. Ukraine has a right to guard its territory. And that’s what they’re doing. They’re following through on all of those particular points. That is what I’ve tried to repeatedly stress to the Vatican: Russia attacked. Russia invaded. Ukraine is fighting for his or her life. What I’m hopeful that the Vatican seems to grasp and can proceed to grasp is, there isn’t a moral equivalence here. There just isn’t. And while all of us want peace, it is just not peace if the agreement that’s achieved takes your loved ones’s home, takes your town. That’s not peace. That’s just pushing aside war to a different day.
CD: You say that you simply’re stressing that to the Holy See. I ponder if you happen to think that they’re veering toward an ethical equivalency. Is that this something that you simply’re pushing back against them on?
JD: Well, I’m very hopeful that the message that we provide to them is one which they clearly understand.
CD: I appreciate you unpacking that with me. I even have one last query on Ukraine: Do you think that it’s advisable for the pope to go to Ukraine?
JD: I even have encouraged the oldsters I speak to on the Vatican to go to Ukraine. I feel once I met with the pope, I encouraged him to go to Ukraine as well. I believe it’s certainly one of the strongest moral statements that the world could see about what is true and what’s mistaken here. I even have also encouraged them to not tie themselves down. What I mean by that’s, you have got heard it discussed, “Well, the pope can’t go to Ukraine unless he also goes to Russia.” Well, what you do is, you make the offer to go. You offer to go to Russia. Russia has clearly said they don’t want him to come back. [The pope has] made that provide. In the event that they are saying they don’t want you to come back, you then shouldn’t simply say, “Well, now I can’t go to Ukraine, because [Russia] won’t have me come.”
The people of Ukraine love the Holy Father. They’ve great faith in him. It will be a unprecedented moment to see the Holy Father in Kyiv praying with the families who’ve lost family members, who’ve lost little kids on the battlefield, for the Holy Father to go to Bucha, where the Russians tortured and murdered people. That’s the type of moral leadership that might have an incredible impact world wide, and I believe would even be a very powerful moment for the papacy.
Joe Donnelly: “While all of us want peace, it is just not peace if the agreement that’s achieved takes your loved ones’s home, takes your town. That’s just pushing aside war to a different day.”
CD: Shifting gears, I need to ask you about your impression of President Biden’s relationship with Pope Francis. What do you think that of their relationship? What’s it like?
JD: I believe they’ve an awesome relationship. They get along extraordinarily well. They refer to one another. You’ll laugh at this: The president, once I was with him before I got here over to Rome, gave me an envelope and said, “That is for the Holy Father.” I said, “O.K., I’ll put it in my bag and hopefully not forget it.” And once I met with the Holy Father, he laughed. He said, “Oh, you didn’t open it!”
They’ve an awesome relationship. And I’ll inform you this, I believe now we have an awesome relationship, the US embassy, with the Vatican, with the Holy See. Archbishop Gallagher has said, “We’ve got a extremely positive relationship with the U.S. embassy.” And, a part of his answer was, “Look, we don’t agree on every issue. There are some issues where they don’t agree with us, and a few issues where we don’t agree with them, but we’re very clear with one another. We respect each other, and we’re each attempting to make life higher for people world wide.”
Folks have asked what’s involved on this position. Obviously we don’t provide visas like other embassies do. What it’s closer to is nearly like a United Nations, where it’s the moral power of the Vatican. That is more of a worldwide engagement embassy or a worldwide engagement post, in that we’re working with them on security issues for religious in various parts of the world, to attempt to help with any information we might need, to work together on easy methods to provide health care to people everywhere in the world, including the US, where I take into consideration one-seventh of health care is provided by the Catholic Church. It goes to human rights and spiritual freedom, as an example, with the Uyghurs who’re in concentration camps in Xinjiang in China. We work on those issues. Also, the pope’s concern about our planet with “Laudato Si’” and attempting to work together to see how we will control global warming.
CD: Are you capable of say any more concerning the sorts of security issues that the U.S. works on with the Vatican?
JD: For example, we had a United States sister who had been held who was recently released: Sister Suellen [Tennyson, who was kidnapped in Burkina Faso and freed after five months. Editor’s note: No information about her kidnappers or the conditions for her release have been published.] And we were thrilled to have her come home. So, any information we had, we tried to work [with the Vatican] to receive also any information that the church had because she’s a United States citizen, and now we have an obligation.
CD: Last query: What do you would like U.S. residents, and perhaps the U.S. Catholics who hearken to our show, to find out about our diplomatic relationship with the Vatican?
JD: That it is robust, that it’s from a position of respect for each other, that the trouble being made by each side is to attempt to be certain that that at the tip of the day, our efforts help make it a safer world, help make people’s lives higher, help provide food to places that need it more, help provide higher health care. We’re the US embassy, but I hope that when the Vatican looks at [us], they are saying, “ what? Also they are accomplishing God’s mission in making people’s lives higher.”