On this “Face the Nation” broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:
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Rep. Daniel Goldman — (D) Recent York
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Rep. Chris Stewart — (R) Utah
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Lucius Outlaw III — Associate professor of law at Howard University School of Law
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Chris Whipple — Creator of “The Fight of His Life: Inside Joe Biden’s White House”
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Larry Pfeiffer — Director of the Hayden Center at George Mason University
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Michael Morell — Former CIA deputy director, CBS News national security contributor
Click here to browse full transcripts of “Face the Nation.”
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m Margaret Brennan in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: We’re just two weeks into the brand new yr, and Washington is already swamped in scandals.
The questions engulfing the Biden administration concerning the top secret documents discovered late last yr and last week proceed to grow, as we learned yesterday of much more classified pages discovered at his Delaware home just hours after the appointment of a special prosecutor.
Unsurprisingly, there have been cries of hypocrisy and guarantees of subpoenas from Republicans.
(Begin VT)
REPRESENTATIVE STEVE SCALISE (R-Louisiana): I’m wondering why the press is not asking the identical questions of him as vice chairman taking classified documents that they were asking President Trump.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: But reporters have expressed disbelief.
(Begin VT)
QUESTION: Classified material next to your Corvette. What were you pondering?
JOE BIDEN (President of the USA): My Corvette is in a locked garage, OK? So it isn’t like they’re sitting out on the road.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And exasperation with the administration’s response.
Republicans are facing their very own scandal with probably the most notorious member of the freshman class, Recent York’s George Santos. The questions on who knew what and when about George Santos, who has admitted to falsifying his resume and is now under multiple criminal investigations, also proceed to grow.
Some Recent York Republicans have called for him to quit, however the party leadership is circling the political wagons, as Santos is a desperately needed vote within the House.
(Begin VT)
QUESTION: Are you going to take any motion against him at this point? Are any of those allegations acceptable to you?
REPRESENTATIVE KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-California): What are the fees against him?
QUESTION: Well…
(CROSSTALK)
REPRESENTATIVE KEVIN MCCARTHY: Is there a charge against him? You recognize, in America today, you are innocent until proven guilty.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Now there are latest reports that some in Republican politics knew Santos was sketchy well before he was elected.
We are going to talk with former federal prosecutor turned Recent York Democratic Congressman Daniel Goldman, plus Utah Republican Congressman Chris Stewart.
Finally, a more in-depth have a look at a trend that Martin Luther King Jr. told Face the Nation he was concerned about and where we stand today.
It’s all just ahead on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.
The classified documents controversy facing the White House grew yet again this weekend with the news that five more classified pages were found on Thursday. The investigation began back in November, when Attorney General Merrick Garland assigned Chicago U.S. attorney John Lausch to look into the invention of documents that included some top secret information in a D.C. office once utilized by Mr. Biden.
Although that discovery was six days before the midterm elections, the primary time the general public heard about it was last Monday, when the White House responded to inquiries from CBS News.
CBS News correspondent and Weekend News Saturday anchor Adriana Diaz broke this story. And she or he is back in Chicago with the newest — Adriana.
ADRIANA DIAZ: Good morning, Margaret.
We now know of roughly 20 classified records recovered from where they shouldn’t have been, an office at a Washington think tank where Mr. Biden frolicked after he was vice chairman, Mr. Biden’s garage in Wilmington, and in a room next to that garage. That is where the newest five pages were discovered Thursday evening, extending what’s turn into a sophisticated saga.
(Begin VT)
ADRIANA DIAZ (voice-over): The newest discovery of classified material got here just hours after the attorney general, citing extraordinary circumstances, announced to the appointment of special counsel Robert Hur.
MERRICK GARLAND (U.S. Attorney General): This morning, President Biden’s personal counsel called Mr. Lausch and stated that a further document bearing classification markings was identified on the president’s personal residence in Wilmington, Delaware.
ADRIANA DIAZ: Thursday evening, special counsel to the president Richard Sauber, who says he was chosen to show over that additional document because he has security clearance, said he went to the House together with DOJ officials.
“While I used to be transferring it,” he said in an announcement Saturday, “five additional pages with classified markings were discovered.”
Republicans have pounced on an administration that has prided itself on transparency.
REPRESENTATIVE KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-California): They knew this has happened to President Biden before the election, but they kept it a secret from the American public?
ADRIANA DIAZ: Legal experts say there are some similarities, but in addition some key differences between President Biden and former President Trump, who’s under a separate special counsel investigation, not only for potentially mishandling tons of of classified documents found at his Florida residence last yr, but in addition for thwarting attempts to get better those documents and obstructing the federal government’s investigation.
In September, President Biden was critical of Trump during an interview with 60 Minutes.
JOE BIDEN (President of the USA): How that would possibly occur, how one — anyone could possibly be that irresponsible. And I assumed, what data was in there which will compromise sources and methods? By that, I mean names of people that helped or et cetera. And it’s just totally irresponsible.
(End VT)
ADRIANA DIAZ: The regular pace of recent developments has many wondering, what’s next?
Should we expect more documents? The short answer is possibly. A part of the explanation classified records keep turning up is that the president’s personal lawyers who’ve been searching through his papers do not have the clearance to view classified materials. So, after they find something, they stop, so someone with clearance can take over.
Within the case of the Wilmington house, that person found more — Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Adriana, thanks.
We’re joined now by senior White House and political correspondent Ed O’Keefe.
Ed, consult with me about transparency. Why didn’t the president’s lawyers or the White House acknowledge this?
ED O’KEEFE: Well, look, they think they’ve handled this by the book, at the very least from a legal perspective. And, ultimately, that is what they’re more concerned about.
They imagine this was a mistake, that recent history shows, when these items are mistakenly found by individuals who had access to classified information and so they turn it over quickly, it gets handled quickly by the Justice Department, possibly someone gets slapped on the wrist, and so they move on.
But the difficulty with public transparency and the president not being straight with the American public is definitely going to linger now and be the topic of questions, not only within the press, but probably from his critics on Capitol Hill.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we still do not know why there have been lawyers searching the offices on November 2, after they found these documents. And the Penn Biden Center has not returned CBS’ calls and questions on that very basic fact.
But fast-forward to the special counsel. How is that this going to affect the administration?
ED O’KEEFE: Well, within the statements that were released on Saturday, the White House now says: We’re not even confirming basic details anymore. You’ve any, you may go to the Justice Department. They’re those taking questions.
This essentially ties the hands of the White House on this matter when it comes to information flow out. Democrats on the skin looking in frustrated and concern for his or her colleagues, as certainly one of them said to me, this week, they were attempting to put lipstick on a pig. The issue is, they were handed 50 pigs and just one stick of lipstick.
That is incoming like they’d not anticipated in any respect before. And, because the White House tries to maintain focused on other things, it is best to expect that they are going to just keep focused, for instance, on the economy, because the president did this past week, as he’ll in the approaching week. They’ve warned now that the debt limit showdown is coming. And that must be handled.
They’ve been attempting to talk concerning the accomplishments within the last two years. As one Democrat put it to me, at the tip of the day, do Americans care that the classified information was present in the homes of the previous president, the present president? Possibly. But, ultimately, at the tip of the day, they’re probably more concerned concerning the basic price of groceries.
And so the White Home is more more likely to try to maintain focused on those things and keep sending it to the Justice Department. But they clearly had an issue this week with this, especially because you’ve got a president who made campaign and day one guarantees of transparency, and so they weren’t kept here, for whatever reason. A lot of questions still to return.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we all know you’ll proceed asking them.
Ed, thanks for joining us.
We go now to Congressman Dan Goldman, a former U.S. attorney in Recent York, who served because the lead counsel for the Democrats in the primary impeachment trial of former President Trump. So, you could recognize him.
Good morning to you, Congressman.
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN (D-Recent York): Good morning, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, let’s start with the appointment of the special counsel.
I do know you were asked last week, and also you said you probably did not think one was obligatory. Given what we now know and the developments, do you continue to think it was a mistake to appoint Hur as a special counsel?
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN: I do not think it was a mistake.
I do not think any of us really have a very good understanding of what information the attorney general had when he decided to appoint Mr. Hur because the special counsel. But I do think it goes to a extremely necessary indisputable fact that is being missed here, which is that this administration is doing things by the book.
There’s a divide and a separation between the Department of Justice and the White House that definitely didn’t exist within the last administration. And President Biden and his team have reached out to the Archives. They’ve reached out to the Department of Justice. They’ve done the whole lot they will to cooperate.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN: And that is in direct contrast to what former President Trump has done, where he has obstructed justice at every turn.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. Doing things by the book now, but, obviously, within the handling of classified material, not by the book, since the regulations are pretty clear there.
Are you able to explain to me, for the search that we just laid out that was happening on the president’s home for the present president, his Wilmington home on Thursday, why would he send lawyers who do not have a security clearance to go looking for classified material?
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN: I’m undecided. And we do not know the circumstances of that.
But, definitely, the documents leave the vice chairman’s office and need to be stored somewhere. I do hope we are going to discover more details about it. But, as you see from the White House’s statement from the private attorney Bob Bauer’s statement, they’re doing the whole lot by the book. They take this classified information being where it shouldn’t be — and all of us acknowledge it shouldn’t be there — they take it very seriously.
They usually are abiding by the laws. They’ve reached out and been as cooperative as possible. And that is a part of the explanation why they cannot speak, is that they might be potentially interfering with an ongoing investigation, which, once more, this administration takes very seriously.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, are you able to explain, on Thursday, why a White House attorney, someone who’s paid by U.S. taxpayers, was the one with the safety clearance who got within the automobile and drove right down to Delaware to then pick up where those lawyers who did not have security clearance left off, after which found the five classified documents?
Why is it appropriate for a White House lawyer to be involved on this personal matter?
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN: Well, since it involves classified information, which belongs to the federal government.
And this White House lawyer, Mr. Sauber, has security clearance. So the private attorneys, once they found a classified document…
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, that is suitable to you?
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN: … need to put it down, stop. After which the White House counsel — yes, in fact, that is appropriate.
When you’ve got matters of national security, it’s good to ensure that that those that have clearance to review them are reviewing them. And, once more, we’re specializing in loads of the nitty-gritty details here. The larger picture is broad cooperation from the president, who clearly takes this very seriously.
And that ought to be really underscored here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You had…
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN: … in addition to the importance of an independence of the Department of Justice.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You had an op-ed last yr concerning the forty fifth president and the problems with classified material.
And also you laid out 4 aspects you said prosecutors need to have a look at, intent to distribute, clear knowledge of importance, volume of the fabric, and whether or not investigators had been lied to.
Is that the set of criteria you furthermore may think President Biden must be judged on?
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN: It absolutely is.
And I feel, should you undergo those criteria, and each, they don’t apply. We have no indication that President Biden knew about them. He definitely has demonstrated no intent to deceive or obstruct the federal government by keeping them. And that is in direct contrast to President Trump, who refused to cooperate, who refused to comply with a subpoena, and who ultimately forced the Department of Justice to execute a search warrant to retrieve the classified documents.
If you have a look at this very clearly, and also you compare them, there isn’t any comparison. Those 4 aspects, I feel, apply to President Trump, and none of them apply to President Biden. And that’s where we should be centering this conversation.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I would like to ask you about your first week in Congress.
One in every of the belongings you did was hand-deliver this ethics grievance to your fellow Recent Yorker Republican George Santos. He’s under local, state, federal and international investigation. You wish a straightforward majority to maneuver ahead with any sort of ethics motion.
Do you’ve got any Republicans supporting what you are attempting to do here?
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN: Well, the speaker of the House indicated that the — he would support an ethics investigation.
And, actually, this morning, Congressman Torres and I sent a letter to Speaker McCarthy, Chairwoman Stefanik and the top of the Congressional Leadership Fund, Kevin McCarthy’s super PAC arm, because there’s really, really bombshell indication and reporting from “The Recent York Times” that all of them knew about Mr. Santos’ lies prior to the election.
And as a part of this investigation, we’re calling on them to be fully cooperative with the investigators, each in Congress and outdoors of Congress, to reveal exactly what they knew about Mr. Santos’ lies and whether or not they were complicit within the scheme to defraud voters.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, for folk at home who aren’t following this in great degree of detail, they hear Kevin McCarthy say things like — Speaker McCarthy say things like, well, other people have also said things that are not true and so they work in Congress.
They give the impression of being on the indisputable fact that Senator Menendez of Recent Jersey has said he knows of an ongoing federal probe that involves him. A variety of Democrats have did not disclose stock trades, other things like that. Why is that this case different? And the way is that this not only politics? Are you able to explain it?
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN: George — sure.
George Santos is a whole and total fraud. The whole lot that he said about himself on the campaign trail, nearly the whole lot, has proven to be a lie. His financial disclosures are — have clear false statements and omissions. And that is what we referred to the Ethics Committee for an investigation to resolve whether he broke the law.
Eight Republican congressmembers have called on him to resign. This isn’t like several of the opposite examples you are talking about. It is a scheme to defraud the voters of the Third District in Recent York. And this must be investigated intensively. And Mr. Santos must think twice about whether he belongs in Congress.
And, more importantly, the speaker must think twice about whether Mr. Santos is fit to serve in Congress.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will likely be tracking that story. Thanks very much, Congressman.
And we turn now to Republican Congressman Chris Stewart of Utah.
Good morning to you, sir.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART (R-Utah): Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You sit on the Intelligence Committee, which has asked for more information from the director of national intelligence in regard to the Biden documents.
But whenever you were on CNN last week, you said you actually doubt that there is something that would endanger national security here. Do you’re thinking that that is just an overreaction to this story?
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: No, I do not.
I mean, I do think it’s unlikely that — when President Trump had this similar experience, some within the media and others claimed, oh, he has nuclear codes, nuclear secrets. I said on the time, I find that extraordinarily unlikely, and I — unlikely.
And I feel that the identical thing can be true of this case.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, they’re…
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: It’s probably not that style of — that style of information.
But when I could make this point in a short time concerning the likelihood of him being unaware of this, I mean, not only am I on the Intelligence Committee. I used to be an Air Force pilot. I flew the B-1. I even have handled classified documents almost my entire life.
And you’ve got to know, every certainly one of these documents, they’ve a canopy sheet that is red.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: It says what the classification is and why it’s classified. Each page has a classification marking on it.
This is not the sort of thing that you simply just sit in your desk and you’re thinking that, oh, I forgot that they are classified. It is very clear that they are classified. And for many who think that, well, the president didn’t realize that he had those in his possession just is nonsense. After all, he knew that he had them. They’re so obvious.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And also you’re applying that standard to each cases here.
CBS is reporting that there was top secret information within the documents present in Biden’s possession. You told CNN that there could also be much more sensitive information at higher classification than that, TS/SCI.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you recognize that to be a fact? Were you informed of that?
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: No, we do not know that yet…
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: … even though it’s been — it has been reported, however it can be very, very necessary.
I mean, SCI, special compartmented information…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: … it limits it to a number of dozen people in some cases, some cases, even less.
That will be extraordinary if that was the case.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Because that was what we’ve reported was within the Trump case, that there was TS/SCI, that classification level.
The Office of the Director of National Intelligence has decided to not comment on these matters at this point. Have they informed your committee whenever you might get some sort of update or briefing, either on the forty fifth president or the present one?
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Yes.
Well, we do know this. The director of national intelligence can select to not comment to the American people, but she will be able to’t select to not comment us. We have now requested an evaluation of those documents,the potential harm that they might have caused.
And I expect that we are going to receive that inside the following few weeks. And we should always receive that in the following few weeks. If these documents were available for an extended time frame in such an open environment as a garage, for heaven’s sakes — now, I understand the garage was locked, because the president made the purpose.
But, still, they were available. It is important for us to know the potential damage to those documents and these documents being available it can have caused to the American — and American security.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, what do you expect to get in the following few weeks? Because I understand the director has not yet briefed on the Trump case.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Yes.
Again, we expect to have an evaluation of what these documents were, the classification of them, the fabric that was included in them, and potential security breaches and the threat to national security because of this of those documents not being secured.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
I would like to maneuver on to other matters, because I understand you are also on the Appropriations Committee.
The treasury secretary says we’ll hit that debt ceiling on the nineteenth and need to go into extraordinary measures to ensure that the federal government pays bills here.
Are you able to guarantee that Republicans will work with Democrats to ensure that we do not trigger an economic crisis?
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Well, we definitely wish to work with them. And we hope that they’ll work with us and the president will work with us.
Look, I’m not a fan of presidency shutdowns. I truthfully do not know anyone who’s. It doesn’t help. Then again, I do have the desire to make this point. It is so necessary. Look, the explanation that we’re coping with inflation that we’re, which has been generational — and it’s price remembering it hurts the poorest amongst us. The working poor are those that are most impacted by inflation.
And the first cause — actually, I’d argue almost the only cause — is government spending and government debt. And as we come up on the debt…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, it is a pile of issues. It is a pile of issues that we’ve covered in depth on this program.
But, on this issue dealing along with your work in Congress, are you able to avert having the credit — creditworthiness in the USA called into query…
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: … if — by actually coming to an agreement to take care of this issue…
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: … before we get to a position of talking a few government shutdown?
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Yes, well, I feel that we will and we should always.
But that to complete my other point, since it’s actually relevant to your query about inflation because of presidency spending, if that is true, and it’s true, then you’ve got to know there will likely be Republicans who will say, we want to reform. We’d like to make use of this as a vehicle to attempt to put some limits on our spending, on our debt and our deficits.
And I’m certainly one of them. And there are lots of others who will likely be. So the query that you’ve got asked now’s, are those two principles, the actual fact we want to reform and cut our deficits and our spending…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: … can we reconcile that with, at the identical time, we don’t need to harm the credit of the USA government?
That is our goal. I feel Republicans are aligned on that. I hope the president is as well.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: And, hopefully, we get to agreement on that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Hopefully.
I would like to ask you about George Santos, as you heard me ask your Democratic colleague.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Can an elected official who’s under that many investigations be trusted as a lawmaker? Should he resign?
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Well, it is a core query.
Look, I do not know Mr. Santos. I even have never had a probability to speak with him. As you observe this, it’s sort of hard…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do it’s good to consult with him to have a solution to that query?
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Well, no, I do not, which is — as I used to be just going to say, as you observe this, it’s pretty hard to not conclude he’s a little bit of a goofball.
He clearly lied to his constituents. And to your point as well, it should be very, very difficult for him to achieve the trust of his colleagues. And I do not know what he’ll do. I mean, the fact is, is, you may’t expel a member of Congress. At the tip of the day, it truly is as much as the voters in Nassau County.
I can inform you this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: If I were in that situation, I do not know the way I could proceed to serve.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: And I had — I suppose he must ask that very same query.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We are going to proceed to ask that.
Congressman, thanks on your time this morning.
We will likely be back in a minute. Stick with us.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: President Biden will turn into the primary sitting president to talk during a Sunday service on the Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, where Reverend Martin Luther King was once a pastor.
King appeared on Face the Nation in May of 1964, when he was working together with President Johnson to get the Civil Rights Act passed.
(Begin VT)
QUESTION: Dr. King, in light of recent statements of Senator Barry Goldwater and, in some cases, Richard Nixon, do you’re thinking that there is a real danger of the Republican Party becoming the white man party on this country?
MARTIN LUTHER KING JR. (Civil Rights Leader): I feel this can be a real danger. And I even have talked with some Negro Republicans who’re very concerned about this.
I see trends and developments which is able to reveal that, unless the liberals of the Republican Party take a far more — play a far more decisive role in leadership positions, this may turn into a white man’s party.
And I feel this may be tragic for the Republican Party, in addition to tragic for the nation.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Today, the 118th Congress is probably the most racially and ethnically diverse in U.S. history. And it has been trending up for the last seven Congresses.
There are a complete of 60 black members within the House and Senate. Only five are Republicans. In keeping with the Pew Institute, 13 percent of House members are black, which is on par with the black population within the U.S. for the very first time.
When Congress passed the Civil Rights Act two months after Martin Luther King spoke on Face the Nation, there have been just five, all House Democrats.
We will likely be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: In case you miss an episode of Face the Nation, you may hearken to our podcast. Find us on Amazon Music.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to FACE THE NATION.
And we’re back now with some evaluation.
Michael Morell is a CBS national security contributor and the previous deputy director of the CIA. Lucius Outlaw is professor of law at Howard University. And Larry Pfeiffer is the director of the Hayden Center here in Washington and a former White House official.
Good morning to all of you.
And I’m hoping you may form of give us a number of bottom lines on what’s a developing story here.
Larry, I would like to begin with you since you ran the White House situation room as its senior director, so you recognize how the present president, when he was vice chairman, interacted with classified material.
Just blanket statement, anyone who keeps documents marked top secret of their personal possession would face a high degree of scrutiny. When is it a criminal act?
LARRY PFEIFFER (Director, Hayden Center for Intelligence Policy and International Security): It becomes a criminal act, I feel, when there’s intention to remove the documents to a location. In my experience, 32 years within the intel community, time on the White House, you recognize, accidents occur. These are paper documents. People carry them in folders. You recognize, sometimes they – they walk out with them and – and – and – and they’re going to discover that they’ve taken them. And after they discover that they’ve taken them by accident, they’ll quickly return them or have someone return them to appropriate location. And I feel that is what happened here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Why do you’re thinking that that?
LARRY PFEIFFER: Well, just from at the very least what – what we have heard thus far. It looks to me like someone probably unknowingly took some mixed group of papers, threw them in a box, and – after which they got shipped off to the residence. I feel we heard that among the documents —
MARGARET BRENNAN: You’re thinking that it is a staff problem, that additionally they were touching this classified information?
LARRY PFEIFFER: Oh, yes, I’m – I sincerely doubt that Joe Biden himself threw these items in a box and – and – and shipped them off to the White House. I’m sure — I’m sorry, to his residence. I’m sure that this was a staff – a staff issue. Some – some aide who, in a rush, within the last days of the administration, was just grabbing materials and throwing them in a box.
I feel we even heard that it was in — a few of this material was in boxes that included material about his son’s funeral. So, they might have seen, you recognize, son, Beau Biden funeral arrangements and thought, oh, OK, let’s just put this in a box, not realizing that there have been other documents intermingled.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mike Morell, you were the deputy CIA director, as – as we mentioned. You recognize learn how to take classified material into your property in a secure fashion. I imagine not in a garage, necessarily, because the president said there. But for six years these documents were in private possession. Is there a risk there?
MICHAEL MORELL: Margaret, there is totally a risk any time there are classified documents that will not be in a controlled facility. And as you said, you recognize, there’s quite a few years where these documents weren’t handled properly. So, there’s absolutely a risk.
I feel that the intelligence community must do a damage assessment. The House Intelligence Committee has asked for that. They deserve it. Just as they do within the case of former President Trump.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It’s — so, certainly one of the questions that is coming up, and, Lucius, perhaps you — Professor Outlaw, perhaps you may weigh in here. This also got here up with the Trump case. If it isn’t the president himself packing up the classified material, if there are other aides, additionally they can have legal exposure here. We all know that certainly one of those staffers was questioned, Kathy Chung. She currently works on the Pentagon. She was an assistant. Is someone like that here at great legal risk?
LUCIUS OUTLAW (Law Professor, Howard University): Well, there’s at all times going to be some risk, however it’s really going to return right down to intent. Was there some sort of criminal intent or was this negligence and even recklessness? And I feel that is what the Department of Justice goes to actually weigh out.
And with regards to the presidents, I actually don’t think the DOJ goes to go towards a criminal prosecution about classified documents because there’s so many open legal questions on presidents and classified documents and whether or not those criminal statutes apply to presidents.
And Garland and the DOJ know that those questions will find yourself on the Supreme Court and so they can haven’t any confidence that in a legal fight with Trump, and even with Biden, but mostly with Trump, that they will likely be successful in a fight against Trump on the Supreme Court about executive power and the usage of power by Trump.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, in each cases, the forty fifth president and the present one, you do not think that there’ll actually find yourself being any prosecutions?
LUCIUS OUTLAW: I do not think there will likely be prosecutions with reference to criminal — about classified information. The obstruction, that is a very different story. And I feel we already see signs, that is where the DOJ is headed when it comes to Trump. Once they served the warrant, the warrant application specifies the actual criminal statutes that they are investigating. Not certainly one of those statutes has anything to do with classified materials. Many of the statutes need to do with obstruction. And I feel that is the cleanest, best path since it doesn’t matter should you’re a president, either you obstruct otherwise you didn’t. You do not have presidential power to obstruct justice. So, I feel that’s the best and most certainly course for the DOJ.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, Larry Pfeiffer, should you could weigh in here. We heard from Dan Goldman, congressman, that he thinks it’s entirely appropriate when it comes to how the White Home is handling this and the president’s private attorneys. Should they be sending, in your view, lawyers with no – no security clearances to go looking for classified documents? After which, should White House attorneys be involved in any way on this case?
LARRY PFEIFFER: Well, uncleared people shouldn’t be looking through boxes in search of classified material since it now exposes classified material to someone who should not be seeing it. My understanding is that a few of these individuals can have previously had clearance, which possibly attenuates the circumstances just a little bit.
Whether it’s White House lawyers are involved or not, I feel that is the discretion of the president as to whom, perhaps, he trusts. As an intelligence skilled for 30-plus years, I feel I’d have liked to have seen possibly an intelligence or a security skilled going and doing these searches. But, you recognize, it’s what it’s at this point.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mike Morell, you recognize, when this issue got here to the forefront with former President Trump, certainly one of the defenses of him was, well, there’s over classification and, due to this fact, possibly these documents aren’t that sensitive. After which, in fact, news agencies, including CBS, reported that a lot of these — tons of of documents actually were very sensitive.
But what’s your view here? Is there a broader issue that two pretty significant men have had this level of issue handling classified information?
MICHAEL MORELL: Margaret, I feel there’s a broader issue, however it’s not over classification. I worked on the CIA for 33 years. I didn’t see information classified to a level where – where I questioned whether that was appropriate or not.
I feel the broader issue is now we’ve two cases of former White Houses as they pack up to go away mishandling classified information. So, we’ve a legal review here by the special counsel. We will have a damage assessment on these documents by the intelligence community. I feel we want a separate, bipartisan task force that appears at how White Houses handle classified information throughout an administration, but particularly at the tip. And I feel they should make recommendations going forward in order that these documents are handled with much greater rigor.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Much greater rigor. What does that mean, harsher penalties?
MICHAEL MORELL: No, I feel it implies that a special group of people, perhaps from the — partly from the intelligence community, but in addition from the National Security Council, must undergo every box that leaves the White House at the tip of an administration to ensure that there aren’t classified documents in it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Professor, you recognize, among the critics, and positively a part of the political framing of that is the shortage of transparency with the general public, which we talked about with Ed O’Keefe earlier.
It was CBS News that broke this story. After which the federal government acknowledged it. Is that appropriate? Do you’re thinking that there’s anything legally to back up the White House argument that they only couldn’t say anything in any respect?
LUCIUS OUTLAW: Right. I mean there is a political query and a legal query. I’m not going to –
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m asking on the legal –
LUCIUS OUTLAW: On the legal side, no, it – what matters –
MARGARET BRENNAN: They might have.
LUCIUS OUTLAW: They – they might have with the general public. What matters most legally is, what did they convey and when to the right government authorities? Was there a delay there? Was there an try to impede any sort of investigation? That’s what matters legally.
Now, what they are saying in the general public may make clear intent if there’s another charges, but legally I do not think that puts them in any jeopardy that they selected to attend to inform the general public something they already told the right government officials.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I ask you that because we regularly hear on the White House podium, that is about process. We couldn’t go outside of the method since it could impede an ongoing investigation.
LUCIUS OUTLAW: Right. They usually — two things could be true. One, they don’t need to impede an investigation, but in addition they don’t need to affect or negatively impact themselves politically or midterms or anything of that nature.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
LUCIUS OUTLAW: Two things could be true.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. Two things could be true, absolutely. It’s Washington. There’s loads of gray and there’s loads of nuance.
But, Larry Pfeiffer, within the case of Trump, it was greater than 300 pages of – of classified information. As we talked about, higher levels at — and a few sensitivity, prolonged legal forwards and backwards. But to what degree does that matter versus that query of intent? You recognize, you are giving the president the advantage of the doubt that this was an accident. The previous president was accused of – of doing many things potentially with this information.
LARRY PFEIFFER: Well, I feel the quantity of the fabric could actually suggest intent. I mean this was 300 classified documents amongst 11,000 other documents that were taken from the White House. That – that just doesn’t occur by accident. That had — there must be some intent there.
Now, I — when this story first broke, I used to be one who actually was somewhat willing to provide some good thing about the doubt because I’ve seen these accidents occur up to now. But as that story unfolded, it became pretty clear that — and given the obstruction, given the reluctance to cooperate, it suggests there could also be, you recognize, more criminal issues at play with the Trump situation.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And, Mike Morell, we talked about this as well, that the shortage of clarity in some ways, when it comes to the flexibility to declassified information. I have been talking in recent days to lawyers, too, about when does the vice chairman get to declassify versus a president.
In your view, does there should be more form of clarity on what a president can declassify and when?
MICHAEL MORELL: So, a president can declassify almost anything. Not the whole lot. But almost anything that is been classified by the manager branch. The vice chairman doesn’t have that authority. He isn’t claiming that on this case.
I just wish to return, Margaret, to – to what you said on the very starting. In each of those cases, we’ve some top-secret documents. That implies that those that classified those documents imagine that in the event that they get into the unsuitable hands there could possibly be exceptionally grave damage to national security. So, we’ve to remain focused on this when it comes to – of those individual cases, but how can we prevent this from happening going forward?
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right, Mike Morell, thanks on your evaluation.
Professor, Larry, thanks as well for joining us.
LARRY PFEIFFER: Thanks.
LUCIUS OUTLAW: Thanks.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will likely be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’re joined now by Chris Whipple, writer of a latest book concerning the first two years of the Biden administration. It’s called “The Fight of His Life: Inside Joe Biden’s White House.”
Good morning to you.
CHRIS WHIPPLE (Creator, “The Fight of His Life”): Good to be here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And also you spent loads of time working on this book over the past two years. And also you met loads of these characters who’re so near Joe Biden, the person and now the president. One in every of them, Bob Bauer, who’s now the president’s attorney in regard to this story we have been talking about for many of the show with classified documents. He also happens to be married to certainly one of the president’s closest advisers.
What do you make of how that is – is playing out? And why is Bauer the person to defend him here?
CHRIS WHIPPLE: Well, let me come back to Bob Bauer in a second.
But I feel that this can be a real problem because there’s just this constant drip, drip, drip of data that comes out concerning the documents. And it’s surprising, to some extent, because I spent two years talking to just about all of Joe Biden’s inner circle. And typically they’re far more adept at handling these crises. I can inform you, that is probably the most battened down, disciplined, leak-proof White House in years, as I feel you recognize. So it’s – so it’s just a little bit surprising. But I feel – and you may sympathize after they say that, look, anything we are saying could possibly be contradicted later. We won’t get ahead of the method. But they actually need to lift their game here, I feel, because this really goes to the guts of Joe Biden’s biggest asset, arguably, which is trust. I mean possibly not for a 30 percent to 40 percent of the American people, but for Democrats and independents. And that is really at stake here.
Bob Bauer is a – is an interesting selection to do that. He’s – he’s a really brilliant guy. I’ve interviewed him for the book. He tells some great stories in it concerning the transition. And I feel that Bauer is a – is a really smart lawyer and really cautious. He isn’t going to want the White House to get on the market and talk lots about what is going on on. And as you noted, he’s – he’s married to certainly one of Joe Biden’s most influential political advisers, Anita Dunn. So, you actually need to wonder what it’s like around that dinner table. If I do know Bob Bauer, he may not even be talking to her about this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It’s a really tight-knit group across the president.
CHRIS WHIPPLE: It’s.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And has been for years.
CHRIS WHIPPLE: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: How did something like this occur?
CHRIS WHIPPLE: Well, you recognize, look, everybody’s baffled by it. And also you – and you’ve got to wonder should you were to go looking among the other presidential properties of other presidents whether we would be finding the identical thing. I feel Mike Morell’s right, there’s got to be a significantly better process. It’s only a sloppy process, I feel.
But, again, I — substantively, I feel this is de facto serious in a technique because I feel that it now becomes difficult, if not unimaginable, to bring charges on the Mar-a-Lago documents case. And the explanation – the explanation I say that’s because irrespective of what anybody says about this being only concerning the facts and the laws, it’s inarguably a political decision with enormous political ramifications. Jack Smith and Merrick Garland need to be occupied with a jury, selecting a jury, and whether that jury goes to think that what Trump did is all that egregious if documents keep popping up every other day in Joe Biden’s residences.
MARGARET BRENNAN: At this point in a presidency you frequently see officials rotate out. I do know you spoke to Chief of Staff Ron Klain extensively. Is he staying on? And will we expect other changes?
CHRIS WHIPPLE: That is a extremely big query for Joe Biden. Look, he’s had a – a really successful two-year presidency, particularly – I mean the second yr has been one of the consequential years for any president in – in modern history. The primary yr was – was tougher. We are able to speak about that. But I feel —
MARGARET BRENNAN: I assume you are talking about Afghanistan.
CHRIS WHIPPLE: Yes, Afghanistan particularly. But I feel that Joe Biden – Joe Biden may have a really tough decision to make if Ron Klain decides to maneuver on any time soon because those are very large shoes to fill. Ron Klain is — arguably belongs in elite company, James Baker, Leon Panetta, a few of the perfect chiefs of staff around. So, I feel it should be a extremely, really necessary decision.
MARGARET BRENNAN: They didn’t tweet like he does. He’s very lively on Twitter.
So, let’s go to something serious here, Afghanistan. That was an enormous black mark on the Biden administration.
CHRIS WHIPPLE: It was.
MARGARET BRENNAN: To essentially have such a chaotic withdrawal on something they only really didn’t expect to go sideways prefer it did.
CHRIS WHIPPLE: I feel – I feel this can be a tale of two presidencies, the primary yr and the second yr. The primary yr overshadowed by Afghanistan, though he had loads of accomplishments that first yr. It was chaotic, God knows, watching it on television. But what I discovered and report in my book is that behind the scenes there was loads of drama.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
CHRIS WHIPPLE: And Tony Blinken, the secretary of state, told me in no uncertain terms that the whole lot we did was based on a fatally flawed intelligence assessment that the Afghan government would last for 18 months. This was news to CIA Director Bill Burns after I sat down with him and talked to him at length about it. He said, look, should you pulled out two legs of the stool, as he put it, American forces and contractors, we — we predicted that that would collapse in a short time.
So, Afghanistan – and — and – and I even have this glorious story that, I mean, Joe Biden shared with me what it was like on the worst day of his presidency, what he called the toughest of the hard days when 13 service members were killed by the suicide bombing in Kabul. Afterwards, Biden needed to confront — needed to attempt to console the families of those fallen soldiers. A few of them blamed him.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
CHRIS WHIPPLE: A few of them were upset because he invoked his son Beau. This was personally really wrenching for Joe Biden. And it is a – it is a, I feel, a fantastic insight into him.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It is a compelling — it is a compelling book. Thanks very much.
CHRIS WHIPPLE: Thanks a lot, Margaret.
We’ll be back in a moment.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Russia launched one other wave of missile attacks on Ukraine on Saturday. Explosions were heard in Kyiv this weekend as missiles rained down nearby, killing about two dozen people in Dnipro and knocking out critical infrastructure in at the very least two major cities. Kyiv is looking on the west to supply them with advanced air defense systems.
Debora Patta has the newest.
(BEGIN VT)
DEBORA PATTA (voice over): A fresh round of missiles unleashed this weekend smashed right into a residential apartment block in Dnipro. A reminder Russian- style, this can be a war declared largely on civilians.
Rescue employees paused to listen for survivors at nighttime. Is someone alive, they shout in unison? Among the many dead, children. Among the many living, this woman, 23-year-old Ana Stasiashvitz (ph), who survived by hiding in the lavatory of what was once her seventh floor apartment.
The strikes come on the week of intense combat within the east where Ukraine is fighting to carry onto Soledar. Russia claims the town is under its control. Ukraine disputes this, saying Moscow is attempting to grind down its forces using mercenaries from the Russian paramilitary group Wagner.
They’ve had loads of losses, Ukrainian soldier Vadim (ph) said. They’re attacking in waves and walking over the dead bodies.
Wagner insists its fighters, not the regular Russian army, seized Soledar, a claim that is led to an internal turf war in Russia over who should get credit for a victory here.
But Vladimir Putin desperately needs a win. He’s did not take a single town since July. Wagner’s leader, Russian oligarch Yevgeny Prigojine, made a triumphant visit to Soledar yesterday handy out medals to his men. They captured it in two weeks, he bragged. They’re probably probably the most experienced army on the planet.
The reality is that they are convicts recruited from prisons across Russia, pardoned in exchange for fighting on the front line, fueling fears that arming hardened criminals may lead to more battlefield atrocities says Ukrainian military expert Olexander Colvalinco (ph).
Convicts haven’t any moral line to cross, he told us. Since they arrived on the battlefield, war crimes have increased.
(END VT)
DEBORA PATTA (on camera): Allied support stays strong with the U.K. becoming the primary western nation to pledge tanks to Kyiv. Other NATO members at the moment are under pressure to follow suit.
Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Debora Patta, thanks.
Here within the U.S., there’s just a little little bit of a brilliant spot in our economy as this December’s Consumer Price Index indicates that inflation is slowing for the sixth straight month thanks, in most part, to falling energy prices. Now, the Fed is anticipated to proceed to lift rates of interest, but given the brand new data, the dimensions and pace of those increases stays an open query.
We’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: In case you cannot watch FACE THE NATION live, you may set your DVR. We’re also available through our CBS and Paramount Plus apps and we’re replayed on our CBS News streaming network throughout the day on Sundays.
That is it for us today. Thanks all for watching. Until next week, for FACE THE NATION, I’m Margaret Brennan.